What the hell is Hell?

This is a 2007 two-part attempt at presenting theology as a dramatic discussion inspired by Peter Kreeft, Bryan McLaren, and Roger Olson. I have not re-visited it in years because it is almost impossible to NOT sound preachy. Nevertheless, Part 1 "Tiptoeing through the TULIP" is a helpful exposition of my Soteriology, and Part 2 "What the hell is Hell?" is a helpful exposition of my Eschatology.

Here in Part 2 we continue a discussion about salvation, particularly what heaven and hell are, and who goes to each. Our characters represent the views of particular Christian traditions about salvation. 

CHARACTERS: We have ARMANDO representing the Arminian tradition, which stresses human free choice in accepting and participating in salvation. CAL is a Calvinist, and he stresses God's sovereignty over human freedom, and the free gift of God to save us regardless of what we do, or don't do, to "earn" salvation. CATHY is our Roman Catholic, and she stresses that salvation is not just individualistic, and it is more than a product that we earn. Salvation is communion with God that comes through the Community of the Church. LIBBY is our "Liberal" Christian, and she stresses God's Love for all of His creation, and his inclusion of all people in God's Love. Guiding the discussion is the University student chaplain, KARIS. While she holds particular views, she does not advocate any particular Christian tradition. She is fond of saying "You need to be part of THE Church, but not necessarily MY church".

SETTING: At a Coffee shop somewhere in a University town, we walk through the door to find two guys and two girls with their Bibles open in a discussion.

KARIS: [Walking in the door] Everyone still in one piece?

ARMANDO: Yeah… We were just talking, and I think the central flaw with Cal's Calvinism is that God has the ability to save all people, but God doesn't WANT to.

CAL: And Armando's Arminianism is flawed because God WANTS to save all people, but he doesn't have the ABILITY.

LIBBY: And I think that God WANTS to save all people, and God CAN save all people, so God WILL save all people!

CATHY: Yeah, but the problem with that it that it totally DENIES everything the Bible says about Hell, judgment, and justice!

LIBBY: And the problem with your theology is that your exclusionary Church decides who God gets to love… It's like a cosmic version of my high-school cafeteria: the "in" crowd and the "out" crowd.

KARIS: Whoa! Play nice! So far, we have chewed up the logic of everyone else, and I think there IS a big problem with your logic too, Libby.

LIBBY: What's that?

KARIS: Meek and Gentle Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else in the Bible. Check out Matthew 25 or Mark 9. Hell figured pretty heavily into Jesus whole preaching scheme. He was the original “hellfire and brimstone” preacher… with one difference. Modern hellfire preachers aim their rhetoric at people outside of the Church, while Jesus aimed his at the leaders of his own religious community. Check out Matthew 23.

LIBBY: Yeah. I know, but I don't like to focus on THAT Jesus. I like to focus on the Jesus of mercy and compassion- the Jesus who feeds the hungry and cures lepers and welcomes prostitutes. In fact, I have a lot of questions about the Jesus of judgment…

KARIS: I see your point, and I agree that our concept of hell is a problem. A big, huge problem. But if we are going to follow Jesus, the reality of hell is a given. We may need to find a new way to understand hell, but we cannot just get rid of hell. Well, we can’t get rid of hell and honestly say we follow Jesus.

Think about it. In a marriage you don't say "I am only married to the part of you that doesn't get angry, but if you get angry, I can ignore you". You are married to the whole person: good, bad, and ugly. You can't just pick and choose the Jesus you like, as if he is a buffet. A lot of people have come up with ways to chop Jesus up and use the parts of him that they like and ignore the rest. They have done it in the name of theology, liberation, and historical criticism. But you gotta relate to the whole person, the whole God, and make sense out of what He is up to.

LIBBY: I guess you are right. But how can the Jesus I know and read in the Bible be one with the God of hell? I mean, I am the “token liberal” here, but I truly think that my liberalism comes from trying to follow Jesus. My nonviolence is rooted in him. My belief that God loves everyone is rooted in him. My passion for social justice is rooted in him.

Jesus is the ultimate "bleeding heart liberal". Just look at how he handled the woman caught in adultery. He could have let her be killed for her sin, but instead he said "I do not condemn you, go and sin no more". So, how can this Jesus be part of sending people to hell?

KARIS: I think we could understand how loving Jesus can preach fiery hell if we had a better understanding of why hell exists and what hell is. Libby, I know you are involved in a group that helps educate inmates in the local prison. Why do you do that?

LIBBY: I don't know how that fits in with the discussion, but I reach out to prisoners because Jesus said that when we reach out to those in prison, we reach out to him. He loves them and wants to save them too.

KARIS: Well, do you believe we need prisons?

LIBBY: I don't like them, but we have to have them.

KARIS: Why?

LIBBY: To rehabilitate people who are anti-social. Because of their own bad choices, and the oppressive environments they have grown up in, they can't make it in society and they need help to learn how to cope, survive, and thrive. Lots of help.

CAL: And we need prisons to PROTECT the public! Some people have to be locked up, or else they will hurt others with their criminal choices. 

LIBBY: Yes, but more than that they need…

KARIS: Whoa! We don’t need to get into this argument right now. Let's just say we need prison for both reasons: rehabilitation of the prisoner, and protection of society. Can we agree on that?

LIBBY and CAL: 

Yes.

KARIS: Well, lets get back to God. Do you think God enjoys the pain and suffering of his people? [Silence] OK, do you think that God gains any kind of enjoyment or satisfaction from people going to hell?

ARMANDO: I don't think so. I can't imagine God enjoying holding people in hell. But if he doesn't get satisfaction from people being in hell, why does he choose to leave them there?

CATHY: Cal just said it. God does it to protect those in heaven. God's justice IS to protect His children. If sinful, selfish, sick people are allowed to mingle with the community of heaven, it will no longer be heaven. It would become hell. Only perfectly loving people can be in a perfectly loving heaven.

CAL: I agree, but… Karis showed us earlier that a really loving God can't be content in leaving people "in the well" of hell. His love can't just give up on people to leave them in a cosmic solitary confinement, to suffer forever. Abandonment isn't love.

ARMANDO: Well, like prison, hell is for protection of the community of heaven. But maybe hell is also like prison in being rehabilitation. Is it possible that God doesn't use hell as a final destination, but as a last ditch effort to heal and rehabilitate sick people?

KARIS: I think you are on to something there. That makes sense of the God I find in the Bible, and the God I find in Jesus Christ. Its like what the Book of Hebrews says: God disciplines everyone who becomes his child so that they can learn how to live in his love.

CAL: Hold up! I like your idea, but two big problems stick out immediately. First, I have real questions about whether or not this idea of hell fits with what the Bible- and Jesus- actually says about hell. Second, isn't this just an after-death version of salvation by good works? If we don't make ourselves good enough in this life, God makes us keep practicing in the next life? If that is the case, what did Jesus die for?

CATHY: Well, hell as rehabilitation sounds awfully similar to purgatory. In fact, it sounds identical, except it is for everyone and purgatory is only for Christians. And what most Protestants don't understand about purgatory is that it has nothing to do with "earning" heaven for ourselves. 

Our death has already been "paid for" by Jesus' death and resurrection. He took our eternal death into Himself and defeated it by rising again so we don't have to die eternally. Those who have accepted Christ are already going to heaven on the basis of what He did, not because of what they did.

For Catholics, purgatory is a final healing, or purging, from sin. It is God's work to heal us of the last vestiges of selfishness, so that we are ready to join the perfect love of the community of heaven. We have to surrender to what God is doing to us and for us. But we do not earn that final healing. God gives it to us freely, by his grace, because of his unconditional love.

KARIS: I think I am saying the same thing about hell. Hell is a final place of healing and cleansing, to get rid of all the garbage that separates us from loving God and each other. In fact, the word that Jesus used for hell is Gehenna. This refers to the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where they would burn up all of the city's trash. Hell- Gehenna- is the final trash dump to get rid of sin.

ARMANDO: Yeah, I have heard that before. But that is not all that hell is. Scripture says that hell both outer darkness and flames that last forever, in which we are actually separated from God. That's a whole lot more than just a garbage dump.

KARIS: This is where we get into what hell is. We have talked about why hell is- for protection and rehabilitation. Now we need to see how that fits in with what the Bible says hell is. First, what kind of "fire" is hell?

CAL: I have always thought of it as the fire of inner regret. The guilt of having denied God, and the despair of never getting a second chance.

ARMANDO: But the Bible doesn't talk about hell as a fire INSIDE, but a fire that is outside us.

CAL: True. So are you saying that hell fire is a real place?

KARIS: Not a real place, but what about a real PERSON?

CAL and ARMANDO: What???

KARIS: Think about it for a second. God is called a "consuming fire" many times in the Bible. Several prophets speak of Him as a refining fire that purifies his people, like a metal worker would purify gold. 

Paul tells the Corinthians that God's fire is going to test all of their works, to see if they were "pure". And in the same passage, he promises that even the person who has their entire life burnt away by God's refining fire will be saved, but as a person "escaping from the flames".

What if the eternal fire is not some separate "cosmic BBQ" that God keeps lit outside of Himself, but instead the eternal fire IS God Himself. What if the flame of his love is also the fire of hell? This would certainly account for how hell could be healing AND be eternal fire at the same time.

LIBBY: But if hell is Godself, the flame of God's love, how could there be "weeping and gnashing" of teeth? How could the presence of God ever be painful, like the Bible describes hell as painful?

KARIS: Have you ever been around someone who you have mistreated or hurt?

LIBBY: Yes.

KARIS: How did it feel to be around them?

LIBBY: Uncomfortable. Guilty. Shameful. I kept avoiding eye contact. And then whole time I was… gnashing my teeth. Hmmmm.

KARIS: Now imagine you are someone who has dedicated most of their life to being selfish and prideful, and all of the sudden you are stuck in the presence of this God who is perfect love and who will not stop loving you no matter what. And suddenly you realize that your entire life has been built on a lie, and you did nothing to serve the God who loves you. How would that feel?

LIBBY: A million times worse. That would be… hell. That IS hell.

KARIS: Now do you see why I think Jesus preached so much about hell, especially to religious people who were using religion as a cover up for selfishness?

LIBBY: I think so. And I think I know why hell is also called "outer darkness".

KARIS: Why?

LIBBY: Think about it. If you are in the presence of the God of Love, and you won't look him in the eyes because of guilt, where else can you turn to look?

CAL: I get it! You close your eyes. You stare into the own inner darkness of your soul, where you have refused to let Christ's light shine. If you will not look into the consuming fire of God's love and face what you have become, you must turn inward, to the dark abyss of your own soul.

LIBBY: Yeah.

KARIS: Yeah. I hadn't thought of that. But it fits. You either face God and allow His love to consume and refine you, or you face the darkness within. Its like hell is the fulfillment of what has started here on Earth.

CATHY: And just like discipline and trials refine us and rehabilitate us in this life, if we will just surrender to God's will, they will do the same thing in the next life. God will not give up on us until we have accepted His Love and become fully healed by Christ's work on the cross, so that we can fully love him and love each other in heaven. It's like purgatory, but for everyone. And unlike Purgatory, this all happens in the presence of Christ, not in a "place" separate from Christ.

KARIS: Yep. That's what I get to when I interpret the passages about damnation in light of the passages about God's Love. You see, you have two sets of passages in the Bible. One set says that God loves all and will reconcile all to Himself through Christ. The other set says that hell is real, and people who deny God's love will go there.

Either you interpret set one in light of set two. In that reading you get something like "When God said he loves everyone, He didn't really mean it. He loves all types of people, but not every person." Or you can interpret set two in light of set one. In that case you come to realize that hell is not a final destination of damnation, but a last ditch tool for salvation.

CAL: OK, I understand how this is not salvation by good works, but salvation by Christ. And I see how some Scriptures connect with this idea. But Scripture seems to say that hell is separation from God, not being in his presence. And the Bible also speaks of hell as "eternal destruction" and "eternal punishment". How does that fit?

KARIS: First off, the word destruction is used in 2nd Thessalonians. The funny thing is that Paul also uses that same word in 2nd Corinthians when he tells that Church to hand a sinner "over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord". It seems clear that this destruction really means the obliteration of selfish, sinful desires. These are destroyed, both in this life and the next, so that we can be healed of sin and live in God's Love.

CAL: OK, one down. Two more to go: punishment and separation.

KARIS: When Jesus speaks of "eternal punishment", he uses the Greek word “kolasis”.  Kolasis was originally a term used in tending grape vines.  It means to “prune” or “lop off”.  To be healthy, a vine must have all the bad growth pruned off.  Later, the word kolasis came to mean “disciplinary punishment”, the kind of punishment given in order to make someone a better person.  

The “eternal punishment” is to eternally have all the evil and selfish parts of our lives “lopped off” so that we are disciplined and can finally become true sons and daughters of God through Christ.

CAL: Two down. One to go: separation from God.

KARIS: This is a little more difficult. The main text here is 2Thessalonians which says something like this in most English translations: "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord".

But this doesn't give the sense of the Greek phrase here. The Greek literally says "destruction from the presence", not "away from the presence". This is important because in Revelation and several Old Testament passages, destruction of God's enemies is done right in front of the Lord. In Revelation, it is done "by the sword that comes from His mouth" .

ARMANDO: And there is another problem with the idea of being cast out of the Lord's presence: It can't be done and still exist. God is pure existence that gives existence to all other things, and to be apart from God is literally not to exist. [Winking] I learned that in philosophy class!

But the Bible says the same thing. In Acts 17 it says that we live and move and exist in God, and in Colossians that all things hold together in Him. And it says in Psalm 139 that God is present in highest heaven and in the depths of hell. And most importantly, Romans 8 says that no created thing can separate us from His Love. We may deny His Love, but apparently we cannot even exist outside of it.

KARIS: Right. So God does not destroy anyone by shutting them out of his presence, but by making them stand directly before him. He holds them in solitary confinement away from the community of heaven, so they can no longer harm anyone else. But this confinement is in his presence, so they come face to face with his love, and see who they really are.

The other way this works is that the separation may be our own choosing. We all know that we can be mad at someone and still be in the same room with them, yet emotionally be a million miles away. I think this is what is behind the idea of being cast into outer darkness. We separate ourselves by shutting our eyes to his presence.

CAL: I think I may be convinced. I will have to pray and think about it.

LIBBY: But what about all of the "wicked and ungodly" that are thrown into the lake of fire to burn forever and ever in Revelation? 

KARIS: It's funny that you ask that. In Revelation it is curious to note what we are warned about, what visions we DO see, and what visions we DO NOT see.

LIBBY: But we see visions of countless numbers of the damned being thrown in hell, right?

KARIS: Not really. We are warned that many types of selfish, sinful people will be thrown in the lake of fire, especially if they wear the "mark of the beast"… whatever that may be. And we see visions of countless numbers of people from "every tribe and tongue" worshipping God in heaven.

But, we don't actually see hordes of hapless people thrown into the lake of fire. In fact, we only actually see five entities thrown into the lake of fire to burn forever: The Dragon, or Satan is thrown in. The Beast and the False Prophet are thrown in. Hades, which is the temporary holding cell for the dead is thrown in. And Death itself is destroyed. But no actual people are thrown in.

CATHY: But aren't the Beast and the False Prophet people?

KARIS: Some say they are people, but I don't think so. St. Paul says that our struggle is not against flesh and blood- not against people- but against "powers and principalities". These are systems of evil that manipulate and control people. With the exception of Satan, who seems to be a fallen angel, everything listed as thrown into the "lake of fire" are evil systems of human control.

The Beast, which is also called "The Antichrist", is an evil system of social control that systematically tries to deprive people of the true God. The false prophet is an evil system of religion, or religions, that validates the Beast and gets them to worship it rather than the true God. 

Death is that state of existence that deprives people of life, and Hades is the "quarantine cell" that keeps people from entering into the fullness of heaven because they are still sick with sin. When all of these things get thrown into the Lake of Fire- the consuming flames of God's Love- it is a way of proclaiming Christ's final victory over everything that stops God from being in communion with His creation.

LIBBY: So, I AM right. Score one for the liberal! God does have to save everyone in the end, even if they go through hell and back to get there.

KARIS: I agree with that statement in hope, but not in certainty.

LIBBY: Huh?

KARIS: To say that God HAS to save everyone is to put him in a controlled logical box, just like the TULIP. But God is God. God is free. God is a person. He is beyond our systems. From what I know of the God I see in Jesus, I have a really strong hope that He will eventually "out-stubborn" even the most staunch sinner and bring them to his love.

I have that hope also because there are a whole bunch of Scriptures that say things like "I will draw all people to myself", and God will reconcile all things to Himself through Christ Jesus. In Philippians Paul says that "every knee in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father".

I have strong reasons for my hope that Jesus' life, death, and resurrection will eventually save everyone. But God is not bound to my expectations. And I guess there could be someone who could stubbornly refuse to accept God's love throughout all ages. But I doubt it. I hope that love will win in the end.

CATHY: If what you are saying is true, then this might solve the whole Calvinist-Armininian controversy. On the Calvinist side, God does act first. He does elect EVERYONE to be saved through Jesus Christ. He does do everything He can to bring everyone to come to faith in Jesus, in this life and the next. It is truly only by God's grace that we are saved.

ARMANDO: But, on the Arminian side, we really do have free choice. We may refuse God for 10 seconds, or 10 million years. And God will never force us to choose Him. He will just lovingly wait until we get sick of our sickness, and then heal us when we finally surrender to him.

CAL: And, Christ's atonement is limited to the elect, as the Calvinists say. But, since everyone is elected eventually, His atonement covers everyone, as the Arminians says. It also goes along with the idea of irresistible Calling. God will eventually call us in a way that is so persuasive we will surrender to him, even if he has to use hell to do it.

ARMANDO: But, this calling also leaves room for genuine choice. Another thing is that we insist that salvation can be lost. People can, and do, go to hell. And, in this view of hell, people can wind up going there, yet also be saved in the long run too. So that fits in with "perseverance of the saints" of the Calvinists. God's love truly does persevere and never gives up!

LIBBY: And I can't help but think that this crosses the Liberal-Conservative divide too. I mean, this would fit in with any type of hellfire sermon you could preach. People do need to repent, or else face coming into the presence of a Holy God unprepared. 

They need to surrender to Christ and be healed of their selfishness, or else they will be in misery in the presence of God's perfect Love. It is powerful to preach that we will all have to answer to a God who will never give up on us until we are fully healed of sin.

But, on the other hand, there is no one who is "out" of God's Love, like so many conservatives preach. It is liberal because EVERYONE is in… They just may not know it yet. Liberals want to know that in the end Love wins. Conservatives want to know that in the end Truth rules. In a redemptive hell, both are true: Love wins and Truth rules.

CATHY: And I think this may cross the Catholic-Protestant divide as well. This idea of hell fulfills our ideas of purgatory. And Protestants are worried about the individual aspect of salvation, while Catholics worry about the communal aspect. This ties both together quite nicely.

CAL: So, since I was such a jerk about your uncle, I can't help but asking: Do you think that Jesus has saved your uncle now, even though he denied Jesus at death? I mean it says in Hebrews that "it is appointed for man to die once, and then face judgment". 

KARIS: I think Hebrews happened- is happening- to him. What is judgment in the Bible? It means to stand before the King and face the facts. When He died, he went to be right in the presence of King Jesus to face who he really is. The consuming fire of a God who loves him more than I can ever imagine is purging and healing him. 

I can't say for sure he is saved right now. Maybe he will stubbornly resist God's love forever. But I know my uncle. When he comes face to face with that kind of love, I think he will come to his senses. I put my hope in God's Love and Christ's resurrection.

ARMANDO: But we have talked about how important the Church is in salvation. It is the Body of Jesus, who is the elect one, and in whom everyone is elected by being joined to his Body. But in your uncle's case, it is THIS Body that drove him away, instead of welcoming him in. How can heaven be heaven with "nice religious" people like that in it???

KARIS: You know, in Mark chapter 9, Jesus has an interesting sermon that is addressed to nice religious people. First, he warns them not to put a stumbling block to anyone who comes to him. Then he literally threatens them with hell-fire if they do. And he ends with this curious phrase: "Everyone will be seasoned with fire". What do you think is going on there?

LIBBY: Does it mean that exclusionary people- even if they have accepted Christ- will have to be purified and healed in hell too?

CATHY: Yes. Like Catholic purgatory. Well, not like. It IS Catholic purgatory.

KARIS: Correct. I don’t think that God will stop healing us until we are all the way healed, period. He wants healthy children to inhabit his Kingdom, not sickly ones. And I have this sneaking suspicion that reconciling relationships in heaven may be part of the healing of hell. CS Lewis paints a beautiful picture of this in his book Called "The Great Divorce". 

But there really is very little Biblical evidence of this. Scripture says that God's people will judge and rule with Christ in the next Age, but it doesn't say what that means. I can't imagine that it will mean that we will look at Jesus, who has healed us from so much and forgiven us so freely, and then look at people who failed to choose Jesus in this life and say "Sorry. God has given up on you!" 

I do imagine it will involve pleading with them to receive Jesus' love, and standing beside them before Jesus as their advocate.

But there is this curious parable that Jesus tells about the rich man in hell. This rich man had ignored a beggar named Lazarus his whole life, and spent his life on spending money. They both die and the rich guy goes to hell, while Lazarus goes to heaven. And in hell, Lazarus comes and visits the rich guy. But why? Was Lazarus there to mock him and say "Ha ha! Your in hell and I'm in heaven!"

LIBBY: No, I don't think that is it. I know what parable you are talking about, and I have always wondered why they visited him in hell, if heaven was so great and all. I guess it is kind of like Jesus, who left heaven and experienced hell on earth to draw people back to God. Maybe they are there in the parable to draw the rich man back to God…

KARIS: We have to be careful. That goes way beyond what the text actually says. But the text does raise that question. And I believe that God uses the Bible to raise questions in our minds that lead us to him. So, I hope this is the right question, and reconciliation is the right "hunch".

CATHY: So you are saying that, for those who already know Christ at their death, that part of their growth and healing in "purgatory"… or hell… whatever you want to call it… Part of their growth and healing will be to reach out to others?

KARIS: That is the hunch I have. But it is just a hunch. Like I said, it is the same hunch that Lewis' "Great Divorce" is based on. I think this fits in with things that Scripture is much clearer about when it speaks of heaven, in places like Revelation. The Bible says that heaven will be a place of fellowship, worship, and prayer, with God and each other. It says that we will rule and judge with Christ. This fits well with that.

CAL: Wait. You switched from hell to heaven like they are the same thing.

KARIS: No. They are the same PERSON.

CAL: Ohhhh. Depending on the attitude you come to God with, depends on whether being in His presence is hell or heaven.

KARIS: Yes.

CAL: But I thought heaven is supposed to be perfect. No more tears or pain. Perfect rest. All of that stuff.

KARIS: What could be more perfect than being in God's presence and working with him- directly with him- for the salvation of the world? It will be wonderful, like being a part of all the backstage action at the Drama of the Universe!

And, think about this: We will be working with God, praying for people on Earth and in hell, and maybe even reaching out to them like the Lazarus parable or the Great Divorce. We will be assured that love wins, and we are on the winning side! What could give us more peace and rest and assurance?

CAL: OK. But I also thought that you said that hell is like quarantine to keep the sickness and selfishness of those who are denying God's Love from infecting the community of heaven. If they are supposed to be separate, how can this happen?

KARIS: Don't get me wrong. The damned can't go into heaven, but if the Lazarus parable reflects reality, then those in heaven can visit the damned in hell. That parable makes it clear that there is a "chasm" between hell and heaven that cannot be crossed by humans. But, the Bible also says that Jesus crossed that chasm, descended to hell, and set the prisoners free.

I think this means that when those in hell repent, surrender, and accept Christ's healing fully, he crosses the chasm and sets them free to be in the community of heaven. And, if my hunch is right, part of our job will be to reason with those across the chasm and help them toward healing.

CAL: Hmmm. That is kind of hard to wrap my mind around. I think I still have little wings, fluffy clouds, and big harps somewhere in the back of my mind as my picture of heaven.

KARIS: Don't worry. I still haven't wrapped my mind around it. It is new to me- a paradigm shift in looking at what the Bible says about salvation.

ARMANDO: But how does this exactly tie in with your uncle? What do you think will happen in hell- or heaven or purgatory or whatever is on the other side of death- what will happen when your uncle in hell encounters people from heaven who excluded him in this life?

KARIS: What will happen is what God always meant to happen: All of them will repent, and be reconciled, and receive the full healing that God made them for. All of them will grow more into Christ's image, even as they both stand in the presence of Christ Himself.

LIBBY: Wow. That is so much more beautiful than God just letting anyone and everyone into heaven without rehabilitation. He really will make us like Christ. One of my favorite verses in the New Testament- even though it was written by Paul, who I think is a misogynist jerk sometimes- is this verse from 2 Corinthians. It says that we will be "transformed from one degree of glory to another" as we live in the presence of Christ.

Wow. You are saying that will really happen. To everyone.

KARIS: That's what I hope. And the same Paul says that "hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts".

And what I like about this view of salvation is that in it Christ fulfills all that is good, true, and beautiful from each of your traditions. 

This fulfills Libby's desire for universal Love and inclusion. 

It fulfills Cal's desire to make sure that God's grace comes first, and we are not saved by earning it. 

It fulfills Armando's insistence that God really has made us in His image, and really has given us freedom to accept or deny His Love. 

It fulfills Cathy's insight that salvation is communion with God in community with God's people. 

And it fulfills the hopes and dreams of all people that love really does win in the end. God really does cure the sickness of evil and sin that has infected all of the people he loves.

CAL: And with that, all of God's people said…

EVERYONE: Amen!